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A commonly-flung ~~insult~~ critique of suchs fics as written by myself,

arafel, ~~anyone who's written straight sex ever~~...is the "characters are written like horny nymphos" thing. Now, personally, I don't believe I myself have written characters like that; I think it's normal for people to want sex quite a bit. Not all the time, but when their motors are revved? Hell yeah. But of course this is just my personal opinion and hey, I could be wrong. I also feel like said criticism could easily be based off of a) dislike of het/our general circle's fics b) a fucked up view of sexual politics c) actual, well-thought criticism. Take your pick. Could be any of the above, could be all of the above.

I tend to get wordy at night, so here's my point. What do you guys think? What's the difference between normal enthusiastic horniness and "nymphomania" (or whatever you want to call it) in a fic? Does it vary depending on the pairing or is there some concrete line? Tone of the story? Plot--or lack of plot? I'm honestly curious here, and I figure my flist has collectively read enough porn to know!

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I think if you read a PWP without realizing what the initials mean, you're probably going to wonder where the sex is coming from >_<

Aside from that, I normally don't go OMFG over sex in porny stories, unless it's like, totally over the top--by which I mean, if dudes are orgasming more than once in a 10-minute period. You can go with the whole 'revved up hormones' and all, but most guys just want to roll over and fall asleep after sex, not go "Yay! That's one position down! Only 999 more to go!" I suppose this all depends on story length, but I'll say this: just don't have them exhaust every sexual position/partner/etc in the same story; I'm more interested in quality than quantity.

most guys just want to roll over and fall asleep after sex, not go "Yay! That's one position down! Only 999 more to go!"

True in a lot of cases, though they can be persuaded XD. Option two, of course, is to let them sleep for half an hour, and then wake them up again. They're usually okay with that....

Of course, the real solution is to just write lesbian sex.

Well, then no one reads your stuff.

Depends on the fandom. I've been in fandoms where the f/f subset was a big and active component, but not many, I'll give you that. Of course, the first requirement is a fandom with multiple attention-grabbing women to choose from....

To be fair, that comment was spurred on by my bitter bitterness against a certain fandom that I've stupidly been trying to get into again.

Your worldly expirience is invaluble XD

Everyone should be invaluable for something XD

Well, you've got those doujinshi and manga already, so I'd say you're doing pretty well XD

I think the difference lies in the tone of the fic. Midvalley/Meryl is not about woe and angst and betrayal. It's about a quick convenience fuck for two people who travel, and cramming as many corny music double entendres as possible into dialogue. It's not meant to be taken seriously. It's a bit of fun.

Or maybe it's just a wonky idea from the sort of people who think a few drinks when you're down = alcoholism/drug abuse, therefore sexual enjoyment = OOC nymphomania.

>^..^

I keep thinking we should post that fic for gits and shiggles, and then I cringe in embarrassment and can't decide.

People like sex. Young, healthy people like sex a lot. Especially when it's a new relationship. Then there's no such thing as too much sex. I spent a week once getting out of bed only for basics like food. Don't think I'm exaggerating - you'd be wrong.

I don't know how many people you're talking about here have levelled that criticism, but some of them are definitely virgins. It's hard to know how much you're going to like sex when you haven't tried it.

Can you make the next one more challenging? *g*

Not to pick on anyone's fic but this fic was the thing I read immediately prior to this comment. This is a character written like a horny nympho. (Wolfwood and Midvalley, actually, seem to get written this way the most often, for me.)

Let's compare that to the infamous "Vash and Meryl have sex on a bar" story. XD ~~Now I didn't read the whole thing but~~ In that story, Vash and Meryl are in an established relationship, and they do something spontaneous and fun. The characterization wasn't dead-on for me, but in part it was because it was an established relationship fic and that pairing really has to be earned for me. The wanting sex and wanting it on the bar was so not part of that equation!

There is a difference here, and it's not about het or slash.

I think there's all three things you're talking about going on here-- including the het/circle backlash, but let's focus on the people with the best of intentions. ~~If any exist.~~

I think a lot of people who are young, who haven't had an established relationship and who aren't familiar with other people's established relationships-- and you don't have to be young for that one-- have weird, fucked-up views of how the sexual world works. Hubby has a co-worker who's bible-thumping Christian and some of the other guys was asking how 'she was,' and oh, no, they're not having sex until they're SO MARRIED OMG. So then they asked how she gave head, and he said, "We don't do that!" There really are people out there-- even MEN-- who think of a blowjob as deviancy.

Obviously, you're never going to have a PWP that people 'believe' in this case. Meryl and Vash are supposed to be closing their eyes and thinking of Gunsmoke.

And I think Vash and Meryl in particular tend to be idealized--

tiggymalvern and I were just talking about this in email, how Vash ends up the Bright Shining Hero with all that entails-- a virgin a lot of times because he's waiting for ~~Wolfwood~~ The Right Woman to Come Along, that kind of thing. (Which is not to say virgin!Vash fics are automatically OOC-- dude, I wrote one-- it just often seems like an offshoot of that reader desire to make Vash 'pure.')

So to some people, whenever you have Vash and Meryl doing more than closing their eyes and thinking of Gunsmoke, then it's automatically OOC, and the 'horny nympho' accusation is right behind that.

This is a character written like a horny nympho.

Yeah, like

angstymcgoth said earlier, screwing anyone and everyone might just be considered OOC. Even when it's Midvalley XD.

I did read the whole sex on the bar story. It was fine. Criticisms that it's invalid for Vash and Meryl to want to screw one another when they're in a relationship are way off the mark. I was left wondering about other things, but, hey, it said it was a PWP.

And a big second to the 'Vash is so, like, pure and virtuous' crap, among both the het and the yaoi fraternity (though I think maybe it's worse in het-land because Meryl herself looks at him that way in the anime). The man tries hard, but he fails sometimes. He screws up, he gets it wrong. He ain't the Second Coming of Jesus. I think mistressrenet's dead on there with the morality thing - in a bed, under the covers with the lights out is 'normal' and in character. Anything else is perversion.

I don't really get why people would WANT to make him pure. Yeah, I'll cop to writing one or two virginal!Vashfics, but that's because they're funny. It's weird that people would want Vash to be pure, considering the moral gray areas that the series explores. I'm not so sure it has to do with Meryl's view of him, because as time goes by, she gets a more realistic picture of him, but some fans never do.

I think mistressrenet's dead on there with the morality thing - in a bed, under the covers with the lights out is 'normal' and in character. Anything else is perversion.

Unless you're being edgy and creative with the pairings, I guess.

Dude, you were lucky you hadn't read this one. Because I can here you asking the question, what would a threesome between Milly, Wolfwood, and Midvalley be like?

Oh, god. I just had to go and look, didn't I? Even if it had been beta'd for spelling and grammar, it would still be awful.

Every character up for anything with anyone. Now that's a nympho fic.

I hate to say this because it might be terribly naive, but Milly's whole "YAY SEX" attitude kills me >_< I can take the yay sex from anybody, but I'd at least LIKE to see the few moments of "wait, what?!" right beforehand.

I don't think a little, 'Say, Wolfwood, who's this guy you want a threesome with and why do we have to hide him from Vash?' would have been entirely unreasonable, no.

Shut up shut up, stop bringing logic into this LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!!

I've pondered that question countless times!

As a reader, I go by that vague old principle "I know it when I see it." I don't read fic in a lot of fandoms, and the one that most of my reading came from before Trigun was BtVS. Spike/Buffy, to be precise. There canon seemed to indicate that Buffy just can't resist the Magical Powers of Spike's Penis. I never bought that interpretation of canon (Marti's canon) and I really don't like fics that fall into that category. I wouldn't use the word "nymphomaniac," but there's something very off-putting about fics that present a woman as weak in the face of overpowering male sexuality. I'm sure there are fandoms which have female characters for whom such characterization is accurate, but I don't think it is for women in BtVS or Trigun. Fic like that in those two fandoms, to me, is crossing the line between normal horniness and whatever that other thing is. Other than that, there are few things in fanfic that cross that line for me and most of them have to do with how the porn is written, not characterization.

I've read the bar fic and it works just fine for me. Canon tells us nothing about how Vash and Meryl act in relationships. Which leaves it pretty open to interpretation and I think both of them have a reckless streak (I'm thinking of manga Meryl) that makes it perfectly plausible for them to screw on a bar. I think that the "OMG OOC Whooooore!" criticism of it that's coming from millyfan (or is that the other one?) is based on a view of sexuality and sexual politics that is twisted, to say the least. Giving in to desire and doing something a bit reckless is normal, and when someone interprets it as behavior unbecoming a woman, I start getting suspicious about their view of female sexuality. I think such criticism of het fics has less to do with clinging to the pure!Vash ideal than with a skewed view of when/why/how Meryl (read: women) should want sex.

Giving in to desire and doing something a bit reckless is normal, and when someone interprets it as behavior unbecoming a woman, I start getting suspicious about their view of female sexuality. I think such criticism of het fics has less to do with clinging to the pure!Vash ideal than with a skewed view of when/why/how Meryl (read: women) should want sex.

Yeah. That's what I was thinking, too. Not to make it all about how their opinion of our fic is wrong and I'm obviously right, because it's not, but the tone of the criticism really creeped me out. I'm okay with people pointing out that maybe Meryl wouldn't be willing to do it in public. We don't know how she acts in a relationship, and circumstances can make a lot of difference, but it's not something I'd say they can't argue. So it's not that but the suggestion that Meryl is dirty, that if she wants to do something adventurous it means that she's addicted, that there's something wrong with her, that I find profoundly disturbing. Saying it's out of character is fine, but saying that it's wrong for her to behave that way...it bothers me. I recall them referring to Meryl in the fic as being reduced to a sex puppet, and thought...that's what a woman being slightly kinky is to them? A sex puppet? Come to think of it, being a nympho and being a Real Doll are fairly contradictory, as one is focused around her desires and the other makes her just an outlet for Vash's.

Frankly, it all has to do with personal crap. Most of us who have commented here know who we're talking about, and we all know that if DS had been written by anyone else (or had been Wolfwood and Midvalley on a bar), it would've been all sunshine and puppies from her. Other than when everyone's crazy to the point of funny, I try to ignore them, as one is outright malicious and the other is manic-depressive and has a personality for each mood. Remember these are the people who saw rapacious overtones in that fic because Vash snuck up on Meryl.

But on the subject of sexual politics, you and

lul1aby have pretty much nailed it. Because yeah, we don't see Meryl engaging in sex during the series, but guess what? Everyone's favorite manwhore? Midvalley? He always has WOMEN on his arms. Therefore it's complete OOC sick yaoifan fantasy to write him having gay sex.

>^..^<

I'm okay with people pointing out that maybe Meryl wouldn't be willing to do it in public.

Meryl probably wouldn't be willing to have sex in public. But she's not. She's doing it behind a closed door where nobody can walk in, and the fact that it's somewhere other than her house doesn't make it either public or odd.

True. But I'm trying to picture their level of thinking, which involves far fewer brain cells.

Awhile ago, I looked that post up on GAFF and my jaw hit the floor. I don't think they can tell the difference between a woman taking control of her desires and being an outlet for male desires. That would require a couple of braincells and a basic understanding of gender issues. It is very disturbing to see women equate a female character wanting sex with being a disgusting addict. It's an extremely misogynistic view. It's strange that one of them keeps bitching about V/M writers always producing sexist portrayals of Meryl and the other one proclaims herself a feminist (or is it the same one? I can't really tell between them at this point). I keep wondering if they are just using the label of feminism in an attempt legitimize their viciousness. Because the alternative - that they seriously think that this is feminism and that pretty much any portrayal of female sexuality is inherently "sexist" - bothers me as a feminist. Of course, they are also batshit crazy, so I don't think their views have many implications.

I love you. And also, word.

What's the difference between normal enthusiastic horniness and "nymphomania" (or whatever you want to call it) in a fic?

Well, in real life nymphomania is an addiction that can be horribly destructive to people's lives and relationships.

In a fic... I would say that would be like this one terrible early-season Buffy fic I read on adultfanfiction.net where Buffy has sex with just about the entire cast, including the fishy-monster swim team from that random season 2 episode.

Having two characters have sex a lot is pretty normal, I think, if we're writing about adults. Sixteen year olds wanting constant sex might not be believable, but adults, sure. Some couples love having sex and can't get enough. I've had friends tell me that they've gone through phases, with certain partners, where they want sex all the time because they're so compatible with that person that it's that good. And you gotta know the OTF is one of those. ;) As would be Vahs and Meryl.

*roots for the otf*

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I'm sorry, I suck at theoretical discussion. So, examples.

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Re: I'm sorry, I suck at theoretical discussion. So, examples.

Re: I'm sorry, I suck at theoretical discussion. So, examples.

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